Отправлено: 20.06.08 04:47. Заголовок: Спойлеры и рассуждения. VasquezE. (10/25/03 03:20:11)

VasquezE(10/25/03 03:20:11)

Спойлеры и рассуждения

1. Почему хронология пятого сезона сдвинута ровно на четыре месяца назад?

а) сценаристам необходимо, чтобы события финала происходили в январе 2004 (то есть через 8 месяцев после Chosen)
и) это просто оплошность вроде "потерянного месяца" в середине 7 сезона "Баффи"

2. Почему к матери Лайлы вернулась память сразу же после того как Уэс убил отца?

а) их души встретились на высшем уровне бытия, и теперь мама Лайлы вернулась с посланием от Роджера Уиндэма-Прайса к Уэсли или ко всей Банде Клыка
б) просто совпадение

3. Почему амулет и материализующее волшебство были посланы по почте?

а) бюджетные ограничения
б) Сценаристы не нашли другого способа подсунуть Хармони Спайку в момент его материализации

4. Зачем сценаристы спаривают Спайка и Хармони?

а) они намерены радикально переписать обоих персонажей и сделать их них "комическую разрядку" шоу
б) они готовы принести Хармони в жертву гнева фанатов для того, чтобы другие кандидатуры в "девушки Спайка" (Фред, Ева) казались бы фанам более приемлемым

5. Почему в чаше страданий оказалась Mountain Dew?

а) Если это идея Джосса Ведона - чаша страданий окажется настоящей, что бы в ней ни находилось. Ведон не раз говорил, что в его понимании "цель путешествия - в самом путешествии". В соответствии с этим кредо единственное, что имеет значение - то, что Спайк все-таки выпил эту чашу. Можно начинать готовиться к тому, что Спайка снова будут мучить...
б) Если это идея Дэвида Фьюри - значит, чаша страданий - всего лишь "оживляж", дешевый предлог для демонстрации драки двух крутых мачо

А ваше мнение?


Оффтоп: ссылка на соответствующий топик оригинального форума Marstersverse

 Отправлено: 22.06.08 16:09. Заголовок: Geroneja(11/18/03 12..

Geroneja(11/18/03 12:02:10)

А что, семинар - это хорошо, это вкусно ))

 Отправлено: 22.06.08 16:10. Заголовок: VasquezE(11/21/03 05..

VasquezE(11/21/03 05:27:02)

Новости от Пандоры

Новая информация по 10 серии: Она будет называться "Предназначение души" (SOUL PURPOSE), автор сценария Брент Флетчер, режиссер Дэвид Бориэнас.

Хм... Брент Флетчер, говорите? Никогда о таком не слыхала. Ну очень забавно.

Пандора сообщает, что 11 серия "Ущерб" написана Стивеном Де Найтом и Дрю Годдардом. Режиссер Джефферсон Кибби. Сценарий у нее в руках, саммери обещано на уикэнд.

 Отправлено: 22.06.08 16:12. Заголовок: Naisica(11/21/03 06:..

Naisica(11/21/03 06:13:33)

Саммери на 11 серию... мороз по коже.

 Отправлено: 22.06.08 16:12. Заголовок: Geroneja(11/21/03 11..

Geroneja(11/21/03 11:19:18)

Брент Флетчер??? Хм... Ну посмотрим, посмотрим, что там он напишет, а ДБ наснимает ))

А вот Годдар и ДеНайт - я пошла запасаться валерьянкой )

Новые слухи о появлении Сары в мае, какой-то товарищ с СМГ-боард:
"I dunno what info you guys have heard about this topic yet, but here’s my 2 cents.

So I was talkin to a friend of mine last night who’s in the industry. He says he heard that she will most likely make an appearance in May. Angel’s ratings are not the greatest, so they’re gonna start to announce Sarah’s appearance on the show to hopefully keep viewers tuning in until May, when she will finally appear on the show! That’s it..."

Меня смущает замечание о рейтингах - насколько мне известно, они более, чем хорошие... В общем, загадочная ситуация )

 Отправлено: 22.06.08 16:13. Заголовок: Naisica(11/21/03 13:..

Naisica(11/21/03 13:46:09)

Может быть имеется ввиду то, что рейтинг может упасть к маю? Хотя очень сильно сомневаюсь, тут чем ближе к концу сезона, тем больше накал страстей... Может что-то не то ляпнул???

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 03:52. Заголовок: Geroneja(11/21/03 16..

Geroneja(11/21/03 16:45:53)

Да вроде бы "are" - это теперешнее время, но очень похоже на то, что все кто-то что-то где-то недослышал, как Ванда-Кристин

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 03:54. Заголовок: VasquezE(11/22/03 13..

VasquezE(11/22/03 13:55:36)

Долго не высовывалась на форум, потому что съездила к Хелен, набрала всего по самые уши и смотрела не отрываясь. Напишу об этом отдельно на других ветках.

По спойлерам. Принципиально нового - ничего. В ТВ-Гайде написали про возвращение Корди. Пустячок, а приятно: ее возвращение расценивается как событие, достойное сообщения в главном телевизионном еженедельнике.

From the Nov. 22-28 issue of TV Guide, p.10, by Michael Ausiello: "In other casting news, Angel's comatose Cordelia (Charisma Carpenter) awakens in time for the WB sleeper's 100th episode in January."

Выудила кое-какие сведения о загадочном Бретте Флетчере (правда, написаны они довольно безграмотно). Насколько я поняла, "Strange World" - это тоже какое-то телешоу.

Brett Flеtcher is or was a script co-ordinator at Angel (Just like Mere Smith was), his also another vetran of strange world, the show that gave us Howard Gordon, Tim Minear, Mere Smith, Jose Molina (Firefly), Thania St John (Buffy) and now Brett Fletcher. He's never written a script before so hope his good.

Итак, "темная лошадка" Бретт Флетчер. Работал, ежели верить товарищу Ocipital на Cold Dead Seed, координатором сценариев на "Ангеле" и шоу "Странный мир". Первый сценарий. Мне почему-то вспоминается товарищ Диего Гутьерес, который работал-работал ассистентом Ведона, а потом вдруг взял и написал самый противоречивый и загадочный эпизод во всем сериале. (*Мне пора сдаваться в психушку на почве паранойи - но я не хочу попасть в ту же палату, что и Баффи*)

Насчет рейтингов.
Рейтинг Destiny - 2,7/4 - заметно скакнул вниз по сравнению с предыдущим эпизодом (на 10%). Каких-то внешних причин (футбольных суперматчей и пр.) не было. Эпизод хорошо раскручивали на ТВ, в прессе и т.д.

На каком-то форуме прочитала, что рейтинг упал во второй половине эпизода. Я не очень хорошо понимаю принцип замера, но, насколько я поняла, они замеряют в начале и в конце серии, но официальных данных на этот счет никогда не сообщается - они просто выводят среднее арифметическое.

(*очень необъективно*) Мне кажется, что большинство этих 10% - поклонники "Баффи", которых шарахнули по голове сценой секса между Спайком и Хармони. Уж на что я была обспойленная - и то меня перекосило.

Если кто-нибудь видит другие причины - хотелось бы услышать. Но все остальное в Destiny сделано здорово и изобретательно, и я подозреваю, что часть Spuffy-настроенных зрителей просто выключила\переключила телевизоры во время рекламной паузы между первым и вторым актом.

Слухи с СМГ-борда - хотелось бы верить, но мой внутренний скептик подсказывает, что товарищ скорее всего выдает желаемое за действительное. Хотя - кто знает?

Напоследок: Shadowcat написала потрясающее эссе по Destiny. Очень любопытные рассуждения, особенно о предполагаемой роли Линдси в свете его поведения в прошлом и насчет игр с именами героев.

Эссе появилось на так называемом "общественном форуме" ASSB, с которого можно перепечатывать. Там он продержится максимум еще сутки, а потом сгинет, поэтому я не выдерживаю и леплю его сюда, если модератор не будет возражать. Геро, в случае чего просто сотри это, ладно?
http://www.voy.com/14810/133044762.html

Subject: Metaphors, Misleads, Brothers -Destiny (Spoilers to Ats 5.8 only)

Hi guys, been a while since I've posted a review or lengthy post on the ASSB board.

Destiny may be one of the best episodes of ATS I've seen. I was slightly spoiled for this episode and it was not at all what I'd expected. Not even close.

People on the spoiler boards had gone nuts and all out war between Spike/Angel fans ensued, silly fools - they were focusing on the wrong things. (sigh). Ats 5.8 is the one that the whole Wagner's Parsifal post and Schoepenhauer was about btw. Time to look it up in the archives.

This episode had tons of misleads for both the audience and the characters. The biggest one is...

THE SHANSHUE PROPHECY - which in the vampire world is almost akin to the Arthurian prophecy of the Holy Grail.

In this episode the Shanshu is brought to the fore again. Interesting. Why now? And more importantly by whom? And how does this connect through the seasons? I think the "who" is what connects it and why we probably shouldn't trust anything we've ever learned about it.

The Shanshue Prophecy first came up in S1 ATS Blind Date. (It was translated in To Shanshu in LA, but Angel stole the scroll for it in Blind Date - this is important. Because it answers two very important questions: 1) who did Angel steal it from? 2)who ensured Angel would find the scroll with the Shanshue prophecy? This is answered in Blind Date - an episode that coincidentally features Lindsey, Angel's nemesis for much of S1 and S2. In fact this is the first episode that really centers on the character of Lindsey.)

In Blind Date - Lindsey approaches Angel to save a bunch of blind telekinetic children (3 in all). He appears to be betraying W&H as well as his own client. He tells Angel where to get the files on the kids in order to locate them before the assassin does. Even sets up a means for Angel to get past security and the telepaths, putting himself at risk. As long as Angel concentrates on those files, they'll be fine. Does Angel? No, he's mysteriously drawn to a scroll in the secured vault and by stealing it sets off all the alarms - so that Lindsey can't escape the building and is discovered by Holland Manners. Manners lets Lindsey off the hook. Giving a nice little speech about Power. A speech that echoes the FE's speeches to Caleb and Spike in S7 BTVS.

Later in To Shanshue in LA - after Wes translates the scroll - W&H has a Vocah demon (who bears a striking resemblance to Jasmine by the way) steal the scroll back so they can use the scroll to bring back a human Darla. (Lindsay is the one who ends up using the scroll to conjure Darla by the way.) Angel attempts to stop them and slices off Lindsey's hand, causing Lindsey to hate Angel even more. (Lindsey had flirted with leaving W&H and joining AI in Blind Date, but changes his mind at the end of the episode after Angel steals the scroll...one can't help but wonder what Lindsey would have done if Angel hadn't stolen the scroll? Or better yet - if Angel had simply destroyed it?)

Once Wes translates the scroll, Angel and AI become obsessed with the Shanshu prophecy, doing all sorts of things to be the champion in it. He's the "one." Also the scroll/Shanshue Prophecy is why Vocah decides to blow up AI (injuring Wes), and make Cordy's visions more intense, and kills Angel's oracles. This by the way is the turning point in the pain of Cordy's visions and Angel's approach to heroism. It's also the beginning of the Connor/Darla arc and possibly the Cordelia arc? Would any of that happened if Angel had left that scroll alone? Probably. What if he had destroyed it? Angel also becomes obsessed with Darla. Then Connor. He doesn't really save the world or people very much during this arc? Does he? Not unless they are somehow linked to w&H, Darla, or Connor? All the while, W&H is egging him on. Lindsey finally fed up with W&H, Angel, and everything - leaves town with his newly attached hand, the last thing he tells Angel, is:"The best way of handling W&H is to not play their game, to make them play yours..." (very good advice, which Angel doesn't appear to follow.)

*Side note - Lilah seems to be to Cordelia, what Lindsey is to Wesely or maybe Angel. Also the Cordelia arc started with Lilah and ended with Lilah's death and ressurection, which brought ANgel and gang into W&H. The Shanshue arc started with Lindsey - it's not over yet.

Now, five years later, after barely mentioning it for two years, we have the Shanshue come up again. Interesting. Guess whose also been gone for two years? That's right Lindsey. The Shanshu thing was Lindsey's project. And we've barely heard it mentioned since Lindsey left town, have we? Eve is convienently the person who tells the gang that the universe is out of balance because there are two vamps with a soul. She deliberately brings up and focuses on the Shanshue prophecy. No one else does. Angel is in fact a bit annoyed by the reference. Who questions EVE? Gunn. Gunn says, wait a minute - we had two vamps with souls last year and no problem. EVE grasping at straws - grabs the fact that Spike wasn't a champion before. (Interesting, so do we believe her? What is a champion any way? Someone who helps others? Someone who saves the day?) Gunn, notice is the only other member of the gang affected by the red eye and he gets affected after he tells EVE he doesn't trust her and knows there's more to her than meets the eye. Gunn is credible until he attacks EVE and Fred saves her - so now EVE looks nice and innocent. Mislead number II - Eve. The nice cheerleader who conviently supplies the gang with all the info on the universe going out of wack. "I'm not the bad guy," she states.

Also, convienently, Wes has taken a leave of absence after the attack of the evil cyborgs (hmmm - wonder who sent them? And were they sent to get Wes out of the picture?) So Sirk takes over and gives a very nice "holy grail" tale coupled with the theory that only one vamp has to be accepted as the one with the Shanshue for the universe to re-align. Interesting. (I don't buy for a second that the universe is out of wack - but that someone has done something to make it appear out of wack.) What does this do? This pits Spike and Angel at each other's throats. They go off on a wild goose chase to an opera house in the middle of the desert to fight over what appears to be a holy relic. (Yet as Spike notes, it doesn't look like a cup of perpetual torment, way too shiny. Reminds me of the Indiana Jones quote in IJ and the Holy Grail. Something to remember about the Holy Grail - it's a story about redemption via redemption - the knight who finds the Holy Grail and brings it to King Arther, and Arthur's response to it - saves them both - their actions towards each other redeem them.)

After much fighting (which I'll get to later, b/c the true meat of the tale is what is going on in both the past and present psychologically between Spike and Angel, not the whole Shanshue thing. The Shanshue is the "mislead" - what's important is the relationship between the characters and their desires.), Spike finds out the cup is a hoax or at least believes it's a hoax since he drank moutain dew. Annoyed they return to w&H, wondering why they were set up. But still unduly distracted by the whole Shanshue thing.

Wait..."distracted"...I just re-watched the S2 episodes, where Wes and Cordelia and Gunn warn Angel not to let W&H distract him, which they of course manage to do with flying colors. Whose in charge of the distraction? Lilah and Lindsey.

Who is in the final scene in bed with EVE? Lindsey covered with runes. (Actually they aren't runes at all, they are anti-magic symbols - seen in a manga someone read, and if you compare to actual runes and magic symbols - fit the magic symbols. So what they do is jam magic. Interesting.)Or is it Lindsey? (Woo-hoo! On the return of Christian Kane. I really missed him.)

So, if I was an evil law firm who had to deal with a pesky vampire with a soul who was messing with my evil plans - what would I do? I'd come up with a way of distracting him. I'd manipulate him. And what's the best way of manipulating or distracting someone if you are a lawyer? Well two things 1) find their weakness. 2)Words baby. It's all about the words. And Angel was always into the whole prophecy/destiny thing - we got the oracles after all. Remember when Saijhan told the gang he re-wrote the prophecy? That anyone can write a prophecy? So what if W&H found the Shanshue, played with a few words, and have been using it to play with Angel's head? Plus - note before Angel gets a chance to consult the power's that be's mouthpieces: the oracles - on the whole Shanshue Prophecy - Vocah kills them and drives Cordy crazy with visions, effectively disconnecting both of Angel's avenues. So we've never really gotten a confirmation from the PTB that the Shanshue Prophecy Wes translated is the real one or valid. We just have Wes' translation and W&H's word on that.

EVE and her bedmate (Lindsey's look-a-like) clearly
wanted Spike to kill Angel or vice-versa. But that's not what happened and that is the "main" point of the episode - the core of the episode is why Spike and Angel did not kill each other. It's all about their relationship - not which vamp is better, not who is more heroic, or more evil or who deserves the Shanshue, that's the mislead, the joke - the game W&H is playing. W&H wants Angel and Spike at each other's throats. They want them to fight, not to band together. The best way of doing that is bringing up the Shanshue Prophecy.

Spike & Angel

In the flashbacks - surprisingly enough, we don't get a rivalry so much as a male bonding. I get the feeling these two guys were friends maybe even brothers or had a mentor relationship, maybe father/son? Angelus reacts with glee when Dru returns with William. Darla had just left him again to be with the Master (the Master always comes first with Darla - Angelus states - which is a very important thing to remember and goes to the heart of explaining a lot about Angelus), and they'd fought over it. Angelus takes one look at William and reactes with a sort of glee, another guy, another vamp. Someone he can mold into his own image, teach, bond with. I think Spike may be right when he states something else was going on there as well. Angelus sees a reflection of himself or who he once was. To test it he holds out his hand in the sunlight standing face to face with William. William takes up the challenge and mirrors him. Angelus laughs - you and I are going to have a ball.
And they do. Until the carriage ride home, when Angelus offers him another drink of the bride, he'd killed, William turns him down - talking about Dru and how she's his Destiney (note before that William was all about bonding with Angelus, stroking Angelus - now he's talking about Dru, whom Angelus dismisses as crazy) - William calls her "his" beloved, and he wants to get back to her. This makes Angelus quiet. He frowns and withdraws into the shadows. I think this is when he plots his rendezvous with Dru. When William returns he's horrified at the betrayal. And Angelus tells him - "she's not yours William, nothing is, you can take all you want, but you will "never" own anything. There is no deserving, no owning, nothing. Just this." He also makes fun of the name Willy - not stating William. But Willy. (Will.) Telling William - he needs to get a better name, William doesn't exactly strike fear in the hearts of anyone. (Interesting considering Liam is Angelus' real name - the Irish verison of William. Willy =Will. Liam = sans Will. )

Spike in the present - accuses Angel of not wanting to look at him now, of hating him now, because it reminds Angel that he created the monster Spike became. Dru may have sired him. But Angelus created him. Angel retorts all he did was open the door and show him how disgustingly horrid he truly was. Spike retorts, you don't know who I am, you never did. You think you created someone in your own image you didn't. Spike stakes Angel through the shoulder, but can't bring himself to kill him. He makes a conscious choice not to. And uses Buffy as the excuse. (Mislead number III - it's not about Buffy this time.) He does it when both are in vamp face. He withdrawls. Both turn back to human face. Angel removes the stake and warns Spike not to drink. (Angel could still stop Spike physically if he wanted to. Spike after all had stopped Angel when he grabbed for it.) What he says is not what one would expect - it's in fact very similar to the advice Angelus once gave William - do you really want the burden of it? Until it takes everything away, and all you are is dust? Is it worth it just to take something away from me? Spike drinks but not just to take something away from Angel but to take on the burden as well. (He states as much - "A little bit of both actually.") Yet the cup is only filled with mountain dew. Why? Well the test wasn't who gets to drink from the cup, but whether they would literally kill one another for it. They don't. Also the shanshu prophecy is "not" important in of itself, it never was. The cup is "not" important. They are symbols and also distractions. The cup of perpetual torment is a symbol of the pain the soul holds. Spike and Angel drank from the cup of perpetual torment the moment they became ensouled. Because that's what having a conscience and being human can be like. One vampire chose it. One had it forced upon him. But it doesn't change the torment. When Angel cautions Spike - it is an echo of the advice Angel may have given Spike, had he asked, way back in Villians through Grave about getting a soul. As well as an echo of what he might have told Spike when Spike fell for Buffy, or decided to wear the amulet. It is the advice an older/more experienced brother gives a younger less experienced brother, a father to a son. A teacher to a student.

The love buried between these two characters echoed in that opera house. Their psychological connection far deeper and more complex than either may be willing to admit. And it also echoed another confrontation - one between Angel and Connor. Ironically - it may be through each other that Angel and Spike get redeemed.

Remember when Angelus teaches William that nothing is his, you deserve nothing, Darla had just left him again...he is basically telling William - look I thought Darla was my destiney and the road to wonder/riches/etc, I've learned she's not. That's not the way of it. There's no forever. I'm going to save you the same pain of that discovery if I can. Here again, Angel is telling Spike - drinking from that cup does not lead to wonder, it leads to ruine, I don't want that for you unless you know what it entails, choose it wisely. Angel does not tell Spike not to drink from the cup just because he wants it, because as he tells Gunn later, he's not so sure that's still the case...no he tells Spike, because he knows what wanting it, what pursuing it, what believing in it and other prophecies has cost him over the years.

Angel ends the episode wondering what happens if he's not the one? And my retort - is Angel, why does it matter? Does that change what you're doing, your purpose? Maybe it's not about "being the one"? This is the lesson Buffy realized in Chosen when she stopped being "the one, sole slayer" and became one of many. She shared the power. Angel needs to learn the same thing. Buffy knew you redeemed via redeeming.
She knew it instinctively. Angel...isn't there yet.

The metaphors all lead me to believe that the whole who deserves to Shanshue theme may be mislead. Just as the whole = who is the better character, more morally upstanding character is a silly battle. It's never been about that.

1. the use of Lindsey or Lindsey's look-a-like (a character whose always been connected with the Shanshue prophecy)with anti-magic symbols tattooed on his body and on the walls of his room. Eve - exposition queen and the teller of the Shanshu dilema, joining him in bed.

2. The Cup = cup of friendship, cup of perpetual torment...yet it reminds me of the grail and the grail was a cup that Jesus shared with his friends at the last supper. Remember in the Jesus story - Jesus redeems others by redeeming himself on the cross. (Angel to Spike - drinking from the Cup is taking up a cross! And Spike remember picks up the cross even though it burns him, the cross Angel pushes away...) But it's not a prize or trophy.
Any more than being crucified was for Christ or Spike's cruxifixion by light in Chosen was - where he redeems the ubervamps with light.

3. The Opera house - Wagner's Parsifal - an opera about the search for the grail, by a fool who when he discoveres the cup brings it to his wounded King, a King wounded in the shoulder and side much like Angel is in this episode and they both sup from it.

4. The drag race in fast cars. The flashbacks. Showing a brotherly male bonding and rivalry. (Reminiscent in some respects to the female bonding of Darla and Dru in Reunion and Redefinition.)

5. Opening Pandora's Box - the flash that turns the world inside out. What's Pandora's Box signify - here it is used to describe both the chrome and steel building that AI is in, and the box Harmony opens that re-corporealizes Spike. In myth - Pandora's Box contained all sorts of deviltry but also truth - another metaphor for taking from the tree of good and evil.

6.Tree of good and evil or the tree of life: Sirk may be referring to the Tree of life when he says the tree shall be split and each shall drink from it. Tree of life different from the tree of knowledge - washes one clean or is a baptism - giving one a second chance. They are reborn.

7. mirror dance of a battle - where neither vamp really goes for the kill. Very much a mirror dance. Angel in some ways is fighting his reflection - how they fight is mirror of one another. Angel pushes the cross towards Spike, Spike picks it up and hits Angel with it, taunting him for not being able to lift it. Compare this scene to the mirror scene between Lorne and his alter-ego in Life of The PArty.
Spike says aloud many of the things Angel doubts about himself. Spike literally tells Angel that Angel can't stand Spike - because Spike represents in Angel's head what Angel hates most about his time as Angelus. Spike tells him that he needed someone as bad or worse than himself to live with how bad he'd become. Spike and Angel make a very good point though when they both state Spike isn't Angel or a reflection of Angel - even though Angel can't help but see it that way. Just as he saw Connor.

In the scene with Lindsey and Eve, Eve says that even though Spike didn't stake Angel, they did fight, since both came back bloody. So does Lindsey and EVE expect Spike or Angel to kill each other? If so, they will be sorely disappointed. They weren't willing to kill each other when one or the other was evil, I sincerely doubt they'll do it now. There's far too much love between them, mixed in with the rivalry and hate, for that to happen. They might beat each other up, knock each other out, but they will not kill each other. Also in a way, W&H or Lindsey/Eve did Spike and Angel a favor - they gave them a chance to address their issues, to fight it out. Far better than letting things continue to fester. I think through working with and coming to terms with each other - both vamps may find their way towards redeeming themselves and the world they live in.

Great episode. Right now...somewhere between a 9 or a 10 out of 10.

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 03:54. Заголовок: Geroneja(11/22/03 17..

Geroneja(11/22/03 17:34:33)

Васкес, наоборот - пусть будет, очень интересное эссе, прото класс - все разложено по полочкам, причем очень хорошо разложено и с очень многим я согласна, кстати, начиная с того, что эпизод действительно шикарный во всех отношениях, и я не понимаю, как и что там с рейтингом, возможно, это Спармони, хотя.. Не знаю, один из самых сильных эпизодов в "Ангеле". И заканчивая тем, что я тоже не поняла, чего вдруг символы в квартире похожего-на-Линдси-персонажа назвали руническим письмом - руны обычно не имею закругленностей в символах, больше остроконечных значков, а тут... И еще много чего хочется сказать, да вот голова не работает абсолютно ))

Ждем тебя в топиках по сериям ))

Кстати, про этого Brett Flеtcher я подумала тоже, что и ты - Normal Again, часть вторая! Так что прошу в нашу палату, мы тут уже обставились, у нас уютненько и даже смирительные рубашечки в мелкого Спайка. *оглядывается на соседа по палате* Правда, Стренджер? ))

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 03:55. Заголовок: Strenger(11/23/03 05..

Strenger(11/23/03 05:52:45)

Правда-правда, только такого раздвоения личности, как у Васкез, у нас еще не было (не загляни я в этот топик, так и не знала бы, что вообще ей серия понравилась *высовывает язык*), так что тем более добро пожаловать .

Зато с паранойей полный порядок : темная лошадка – это фирменный знак МЕ, по-моему, так что абсолютно готова поверить, что этото самый Флетчер может оказаться не только ею, но и котом Шредингера в мешке.

Эссе Кошачьей Тени мне тоже очень понравилось, хотя и я не совсем с ней согласна: не думаю что мотив «кто стоит чего» так-таки окажется здесь практически отсутствующим... Шаншу – может, вполне станется с ехидин-МЕ, а проверка на вшивость – без этого у них никогда не обходится, по-моему.

А рейтинги... В этих данных столько противоречий в зависимости от источников, что я вообще, кажется, скоро перестану следить за этими цифрами – по крайней мере, за немедленными и новейшими. Одни говорят одно – и приводят в доказательство линк. Другие постят другое – и тоже с линком. (А чтобы так точно определить падение числа смотрящего народу по времени передачи эпизода – это надо ОЧЕНЬ хорошо сидеть. Это странно, если кто-то из статистиков в центре слежения за нильсеновскими ящиками публикует такую информацию так быстро: максимум, она бы пошла на стол телебоссам).

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 03:56. Заголовок: Geroneja(11/23/03 10..

Geroneja(11/23/03 10:37:49)

А я еще сегодня вычитала, что рейтинги 8-й "Ангела" выше, чем 8-й "Смоллвилля" и вообще очень неплохие.. хм.. Все, цифрам верить нельзя )

Зато появилось официальное подтверждение названий серий:
5.09 Rubicon
5.10 Soul Purpose
5.11 Damage

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 03:57. Заголовок: Helen267(11/23/03 10..

Helen267(11/23/03 10:47:34)

а когда они выйдут? есть дата эфира?

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 03:58. Заголовок: Geroneja(11/23/03 10..

Geroneja(11/23/03 10:57:53)

Дат пока нету, есть надежда, что до Нового года, во всяком случае, 10-я должна была быть рождественским кошмаром, а девятая, вроде бы, будет не в эту среду, а в следующую

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 03:59. Заголовок: Smth Blue(11/23/03 1..

Smth Blue(11/23/03 11:24:34)

Хочется надеяться, что все-таки не в январе, как ходят слухи.

Вот, у меня валялась интерестная статья, линка на нее уже давно упала:

The Buffy Formula
Joss & Company, however unintentional, seem to have developed a pattern for seasonal story arcs. While not present in every season that has aired, it was extremely prominent from Season Two through Season Four. Season One, which only had twelve episodes, did not have time to utilize the Formula. That does not mean that it couldn't have been planned, but never used (see Odds & Ends.) Season Five and Seven, while featuring elements of the Formula, wasn't as clear cut as Seasons Two through Four or Six. The Buffy Formula focuses mainly on those seasons.
The main theme of the Buffy Formula is one of misdirection, usually in terms of who is the 'Big Bad' for the season. The Buffy Fan Community came up with the term 'Big Bad', to refer to who they feel is the Villain for the Season. Examples of the 'Big Bad' would be The Master, Angelus, The Mayor, Adam, Glory and Willow. (Note: Spike likes to refer to himself as the 'Big Bad', but actually has yet to be a Seasonal 'Big Bad').
The story arc in the Buffy Formula has two distinct halves. The first half, introduces us to what we would assume is the 'Big Bad' for the season. That character(s) is developed for most of the first half of the season. They don't have to be introduced in the first episode of the season. They usually appear around Episode Three, with their real motives becoming apparent around Episode Seven. This character(s), who I will refer to as the 'Little Bad', usually causes Buffy a great deal of trouble during the first half of the Season. Examples of the 'Little Bad' would be Spike and Drusilla, Mr. Trick, Professor Walsh and The Troika (Warren, Jonathan, and Andrew).
Then at some point after the mid-season point, things change in a very radical manner. Three events occur, in rapid succession, which totally change the story arc for the Season. The three events are...
Buffy and the Scooby Gang are betrayed by an ally.
The 'Little Bad' is either rendered helpless or killed.
The 'Big Bad' for the Season is revealed
The three events do vary slightly from Season to Season. Spike is paralyzed, but not killed, in Season 2. However, there are indications that originally he would have died (see Odds & Ends.) While the Mayor is a noticeable threat in the early part of Season Three, there is no indication of his true intentions until after Faith's betrayal. In Season Four, Professor Walsh wasn't actually out to get Buffy, until Buffy became too much of a threat to the Initiative's plans. However, she certainly frustrated Buffy a great deal in the early half of the Season. The events are clearly there, and we can see the pattern as demonstrated here.
Season Two Little Bad Betrayer Big Bad
Spike and Drusilla Angel Angelus
Season Three Mr. Trick Faith The Mayor
Season Four Professor Walsh Professor Walsh Adam
Season Six Warren Willow Willow
There are other minor events that also occur throughout the Season, which seem to remain consistent with the Formula. For example, the 'Big Bad' is usually betrayed by one of their allies in the final episode. In the final episodes of Season Two through Four, we do have Spike, Faith, and Riley all either working for or controlled by the 'Big Bad'. Information or aid given by these characters allows Buffy to defeat the 'Big Bad'.
The following section outlines each season and how the plot fits the Buffy Formula. I also comment on Season Five and Seven and how they did not follow the Buffy Formula.
Seasons Two through Four
Season Two Little Bad: Spike and Dru. Betrayal: Angel. Big Bad: Angelus
Episode Three: School Hard Spike and Drusilla introduced
Episode Seven: Lie to Me Spike and Drusilla's Relationship to Angel revealed
Episode Thirteen: Surprise Spike Reappears Crippled
Episode Fourteen: Innocence Angel Becomes Angelus (unintentionally betraying Buffy)
Episode Twenty-Two: Becoming Pt 2 Spike betrays Angel
Season Three Little Bad: Mr. Trick. Betrayal: Faith. Big Bad: Faith/Mayor
Episode Three: Faith, Hope, and Trick Mr. Trick and Faith introduced
Episode Six: Band Candy Mr. Trick/Mayor alliance
Episode Fourteen: Bad Girls Faith kills Deputy Mayor Finch
Episode Fifteen: Consequences Faith slays Mr. Trick and allies with the Mayor
Episode Twenty-Two: Graduation Day 2 Dream Faith Hints at the Mayor's Weakness
Season Four Little Bad: The Initiative/Dr. Walsh. Betrayal: Dr. Walsh. Big Bad: Adam
First Six Episodes The Initiative and its motives are hinted at.
Episode Seven: Initiative The Initiative Revealed
Episode Thirteen: The I in Team Dr. Walsh betrays Buffy, Adam introduced, Adam kills Dr. Walsh
Episode Twenty-One: Primeval Riley fights the effects of the chip
Season Five
In Season Five, the show departed from the Formula. Although some elements were there, such as Ben's betrayal (both unintentional and intentional), Glory remained the 'Big Bad' throughout the Season. There are stretches that would make the Formula work, for example if we considered Dawn to be the 'Little Bad'. If we did that, then we could see "Blood Ties" to be the pivotal episode: Dawn is revealed to truly be human, Ben is not the good guy we think he is, etc. Unfortunately, it is a complete and total stretch. Likewise, one could consider Joyce's illness to be a 'Little Bad', since it dominates the first half of the Season. However, no matter how I look at it, the tight pattern the Buffy Formula presented in Season Two through Four is not apparent at all in Season Five.
Originally, I had very mixed feelings about Season Five. The writing was some of the best we've had on the show, and overall the episodes reflected that. However, I wasn't happy with the overall story arc for the season. After having the opportunity to sit down and watch the entire season over the course of a week, I've changed my opinion on the story arc for Season Five. The flaw in Season Five isn't in the writing, it's in the method of delivery. The twenty-two episodes that comprised Season Five aired over an eight month period, which is standard network practice. However, hardly any show on television juggles as many story arcs and plot points as Buffy. Two exceptions to this, The Sopranos and Six Feet Under, have the benefit of airing as a complete package. Which brings up the question, why wasn't this a problem in the previous seasons
Perhaps it's because the writers were not throwing as many story arcs at the viewers in previous seasons. During the first half of Season Five, almost every character was involved in a story arc, many of which crossed over into other arcs. When seen in succession, the arcs become clearer and begin to form a very cohesive whole. Shown in chunks, with gaps of up to a month in between episodes, some of the story gets lost. In addition, with the exception of Buffy and Riley (and maybe Spike), the relationships of the characters entered into a very stable period. All of which had been developed previously, so that there was time to devote to alternate story arcs.
So where did that leave the Formula? That depends much on what happens in Season Six. Certain elements of the Formula can exist outside of the pattern, like the 'Big Bad' or 'The Betrayal'. These are elements that the writers will likely be unable to avoid incorporating into a Season's Story Arc. The 'Big Bad' because you need something for the Scooby Gang to fight during the Season, and 'The Betrayal' because you need a plot-twist to separate the two halves of the Season. In Season Five, the 'Big Bad' was Glory and 'The Betrayal' was the Ben/Glory twist. The question now is this pattern going to repeat in Season Six, will it fall back on the original Formula, or are we looking at something entirely new
Season Six
When news about the season first started breaking, it appeared that the season would indeed following the Buffy Formula. The Troika was a perfect candidate to become the 'Little Bad', while the Willow rumors indicated that she would become the 'Big Bad'. Halfway through the season, it appeared that this would not be the case. For the three seasons that did follow the Buffy Formula, the events always feel around mid-season. This year, Willow was well into her recovery from the Dark Arts and Warren had obviously stepped up the plate as a Potential 'Big Bad' growing from the Troika as the 'Little Bad'.
Turns out I was correct the first time, as although it comes later in the Season than it has in the past, the Buffy Formula is alive and well and played out over the last four episodes of Season Six.
Season Six Little Bad: Warren. Betrayal: Willow. Big Bad: Willow
Episode One/Two: Bargaining Willow brings back Buffy
Episode Four: Flooded Troika introduced
Episode Eleven: Gone The Troika revealed
Episode Thirteen: Dead Things Warren proves that he is evil
Episode Nineteen Warren kills Tara
Episode Twenty Willow turns to black magic, kills Warren
Season Seven
Season Seven started off with some potential. Even though a 'Bad' was introduced at the end of the first episode, we didn't know if it would be the 'Big or Little Bad' until Episode Nine ('Never Leave Me') when it was finally revealed that the 'Bad' was indeed 'The First Evil'.
Which introduced a problem, how can a entity like 'The First' be a 'Little Bad'? What could be a greater threat, or neutralize 'The First'? It turns out, that there really wasn't anything that could threaten it. Though for the most part, it really couldn't do anything to threaten the Scooby Gang either. That is, until Caleb came onto the scene in 'Dirty Girls'. Caleb was not only more of a threat to the Scoobies, he actually caused the greatest amount of damage and suffering in the group.
Essentially, Season Seven is 'The Buffy Formula' run in reverse order. With Caleb being the 'Little Bad' and 'The First' being the 'Big Bad'. The season itself would have been much tighter in terms of story arc, if the first half had introduced Caleb (perhaps even having him brainwashing and bending Spike to his will), eventually revealing that the source of Caleb's power was 'The First'. Then the final half of the season would have been Buffy and the Potentials trying to defeat the plans of 'The First'.
However, even with that twist there is a big lack of 'betrayal' in this season (unless you count the Scoobies turning on Buffy, but to be honest, that's been a constant in most seasons to date).
In the end, compared to the rest, Season Seven is perhaps the weakest of them all. There were a lot of questions left unanswered, and in many ways it seems that the flow was being changed as the episodes were written. Events and Plot Twists were introduced, that either had no resolution, or ones that didn't make much sense. In addition, many of the episodes themselves seemed to be merely variations on the same theme. Season Seven didn't fit the Buffy Formula pattern at all, perhaps even less so than Season Five.
If you are interested, you can read more on my thoughts about Season Seven (and my ranking of all the Seasons), at The Spoiler Slayer.
Odds & Ends
Another interesting aspect is the amount of time spent developing the 'Big Bad'. Character development can take place in 5 episodes or less. In each consecutive season, less time was spent specifically developing the 'Big Bad'. Although each of these characters appeared in other episodes during that season, the episodes listed were the ones that actually developed the character in terms of motive (or madness).
Big Bad Development Episodes Total Episodes
Angelus Innocence, Passion, I Only Have Eyes for You, Becoming 1 & 2 5
The Mayor Enemies, Choices, Graduation Day 1 & 2 4
Adam Goodbye Iowa, Yoko Factor, Primeval 3
Willow Villains, Two To Go, Grave 3
Spike was originally supposed to be killed by Angel in Season 2. If this had happened, then the Buffy Formula could be revised to say that the "Little Bad" was always killed.
If we look at Season One and extrapolate what might have been if it had been a full season, there is evidence that suggests that the Formula may have been at work there. The Master would have been killed, with the Anointed One becoming the 'Big Bad'. The Anointed One also technically betrayed the Master, by leading Buffy to him.
There are recurring characters, who usually appear once or twice a season. Note: None of them appeared in Season Five.
Ethan Rayne: Season Two (Dark Age, Halloween), Three (Band Candy), Four (A New Man)
Amy Madison: Season One (The Witch), Two (Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered), Three (Gingerbread), Four (Something Blue), Six (various episodes), Seven (The Killer In Me)
Jonathan: Season Two (various episodes), Three (various episodes), Four (Superstar), Six (various episodes), Seven (various episodes)
In almost every Season, there is a death that has far-ranging repercussions.
Season Two: Jenny Calendar
Season Three: Deputy Mayor Finch
Season Four: Professor Walsh
Season Five: Joyce Summers
Season Six: Tara

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 04:00. Заголовок: Geroneja(11/23/03 12..

Geroneja(11/23/03 12:57:01)

Спасибо за статью, прочитала с большим удовольствием )

 Отправлено: 25.06.08 04:01. Заголовок: VasquezE Стренджер ..

VasquezE

цитата:

Стренджер такого раздвоения личности, как у Васкез, у нас еще не было (не загляни я в этот топик, так и не знала бы, что вообще ей серия понравилась

Я не говорила "мне понравилось". Я сказала, что серия - если рассматривать ее объективно - сделана здорово и изобретательно. Дело в том, что помимо пристрастного фана во мне сидит профессиональный кинообозреватель, который обязан быть объективным. Наверное, это действительно раздвоение. Думаю, через некоторое время пересмотрю Destiny еще раз - может быть, что-нибудь изменится.

Smth Blue, спасибо за статью.